Dangerous dogs itv

[Adrianne]

Did anyone else see this last night?
It was awful, misleading by title and IMO promoting dreadful handling skills of frightened dogs by clearly naive 'professionals'
The message was good - clearly stating that there will always be dangerous dogs whilst dogs are treated poorly, and not pointing the finger at breeds etc. However a wasted opportunity to really explore that message.

[kristina]

I watched it Adrianne and was horrified and totally agree with you,it was heart braking too,felt for the old lady whose little dog was attacked though,but those poor puppies how stupid that man is and how is he allowed to breed them like that??? The Laws need to be tighten up big time I feel.That beautiful Akita had me in tears the way they dragged him out of the house and what a lovely dog he is.Look forward but also dread the next progamme but I will be watching.Kristina

[Kimmikins]

I didn't watch, and I think I made the right choice from what I've been hearing and reading. There was no way that a show with such a dramatic title was ever going to be a responsible investigation into the issue I get so wound up with the issue, and the massive amount of ignorance surrounding it, that I decided I didn't want to be shouting at my TV of an evening.

What do we all think they should have discussed on the show instead?

Adrianne has posted before about how a dog's genetics and the environment in which it is raised and how it's related to it's adult persona i.e. a dog that is born to shy/fearful parents can never grow up to be fully confident, but a confident pup can turn into a fearful one given the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it!) environment. If a dog is born to an aggressive parent, but raised in a very good home....will it still be more prone to aggression than a pup born to a non-aggressive parent?

[Adrianne]

There are responsible phenotypes but not genes, lots of different neurological links and routes, but exposure, environment, expectation etc play parts.. Undoubtedly two parents with low tolerance will produce pups with the likelihood to be of lower tolerance but not a specific gene or gene mutation.

The thing is there is no such thing as an aggressive dog, just dogs who need to use aggression.. All predators need to be able to use aggression.
All dogs are capable of using aggressive behaviour in situations that thhey feel they need to.

[Adrianne]

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2898780/

Differential gene expression in brains of aggressive v non aggressive dogs

[sparks01]

the thing that got me was the dog warden attempting to remove the Akita. i can appreciate she has had problems before but to me she got that all wrong with her high pitched screeching at the dog and later in the show the dog proved how good he was with the right approach

[Jordan]

Still to catch up with this programme, will watch it inspite of the bad reports!

Adrianne that article goes way above my head, its a bit worrying to see English Springers featured so much in the aggressive dogs brain studies, but pleased to see they were also included in the non aggressive study.

[Kimmikins]

I think it's good that they replicated the numbers of Springers across both the aggressive and non-aggressive subects. And from a scientific analysis point of view, the less variation there is, the better - so having more of the same breed provides better results because you can start to rule out anomalous results based on breed differences

On a positive, they didn't say that they had so many Springers because of previous indications that the breed is prone to aggression. Also, if they'd have used something like the GSD or another breed heavily media hyped to be aggressive, their paper might have faced criticism.

[Adrianne]

think they were secretly looking for the bonkers gene by using spaniels!

[sparks01]

adrianne did you think any of those dogs were dangerous. why on earth would you try and feed two starving ridgebacks in the same pen for gods sake of course they will fight they starving and you just put a bowl of food in with them jeeeze
has anyone took a look on the birmingham city facebook page dog people are not happy

[Adrianne]

The people 'handling' the dogs in question were certainly 'in danger' from them...but due to circumstances and handling techniques, not because the dogs themselves were dangerous...remove them from the environment and reduce the cause of stress and fear and unless the aggression is purely down to androphobic, or other human related causes...then the reactions would have been very different.
The program was showing heavy handed forceful methods, combined with heightened noise and emotions...not at all how most professionals in the industry work.
Not seen the website yet..may take a peek.

[kimthecat]

I couldnt bring myself to wartch it and I'm glad I didnt after reading about it on forums. Most people agreed with your review Adrianne.

I found a couple of studies about aggression and  genes

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100525090552.htm

May 26, 2010
Norwegian School of Veterinary Science
Summary:
The control of different behaviors is a complex process that is influenced by both genetics and environmental factors. A new study throws light on interesting connections between canine aggression and genes that are involved in neurotransmission in the brain.



www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253978/


Abstract

An astonishing amount of behavioral variation is captured within the more than 350 breeds of dog recognized worldwide. Inherent in observations of dog behavior is the notion that much of what is observed is breed specific and will persist, even in the absence of training or motivation. Thus, herding, pointing, tracking, hunting, and so forth are likely to be controlled, at least in part, at the genetic level. Recent studies in canine genetics suggest that small numbers of genes control major morphologic phenotypes. By extension, we hypothesize that at least some canine behaviors will also be controlled by small numbers of genes that can be readily mapped. In this review, we describe our current understanding of a representative subset of canine behaviors, as well as approaches for phenotyping, genome-wide scans, and data analysis. Finally, we discuss the applicability of studies of canine behavior to human genetics.

[kimthecat]

Mar 22, 2014 9:47:42 GMT Kimmikins said:

Adrianne has posted before about how a dog's genetics and the environment in which it is raised and how it's related to it's adult persona i.e. a dog that is born to shy/fearful parents can never grow up to be fully confident, but a confident pup can turn into a fearful one given the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it!) environment. If a dog is born to an aggressive parent, but raised in a very good home....will it still be more prone to aggression than a pup born to a non-aggressive parent?

 Thats an interesting question which Adrianne has already answered, The same could be asked of shy/confident dogs being brought up in opposite environments.

Its a complicated subject and I dont have a thorough understanding of it but I tend to think of it as nature and nurture and that genes give us the potential for behaviour and the potential we have is shaped by the environment .  Some behaviours might never emerge if there is no influence from our surroundings or from our experiences in life.

Researchers have to take into account the variables when dog studying behaviour.  If puppies stay until they are 12 weeks old, with their fearful/reactive mother who barks or runs away from vistors and they then act in the same way,  is there a genetic component involved  or have they learnt to act like that because their mum does .
We know more about genetics and gene mapping nowadays so perhaps we can be more certain nowadays of the influence they have on us. 

[Adrianne]

the problem being, aggression is a 'by product', the result of a stress on the dog, and there are at least 27 distinguishable forms of aggression most resulting from the emotion of fear, dogs that are subjected in the uterus to their mother being fearful, jumpy, nervous anxious etc..develop less receptors to the 'fear hormones' however they go on to learn from their mother and her behaviour, learn that things are frightening, and when they produce their own hormones relating to a threat or fright, (even prey-drive) - the hormones have less receptors to deal with them..therefore the reaction is greater.
Pups born to this mother may or may not display the same behaviours and reactons as each other..some may be very bold, others very shy. ...there is also a maladaptive gene that effects herding dogs the gene is called mdr2 gene and the same dog may be both very bold and very shy, dogs with the mdr2 gene have massive neurological responses and reactions to certain medications including some pain relief ..there doesn't seem to be as much information in the uk on this as in Australia and usa. I believe a simple test can be done ..but how many behaviourists have struggled with dogs that may benefit a little from modification, but will never change 100% , if a behaviourist says that they can obtain 100% or give guarantees then they don't know enough about their work.

[kimthecat]

That's fascinating especially about the BCs and the mdr2 gene. Thanks for explaining in a way I understood. 
 I'm glad I did Biology O level at school now, it was 40 years ago !  I've forgotten a lot of it and I've had to google some of the terms, I read this to refresh my memory and thought I'd put the link here in case anyone else finds it useful

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_genetics